#it misses the point of the novel imo

[liquidstar]

honestly does anyone else think that the what:if routes are perhaps telling us that some sort of collision between subaru and reinhard is just inevitable in nearly every route

[wyllzel]

😭 why did benedict tell colin "at least you have a direction in life" when the whole point of "romancing mr. bridgerton" was that colin did not, in fact, have a direction and needed to accept penelope's help/encouragement in finding it 😭😭

[centrally-unplanned]

I thought this was a well-framed piece on changing tastes in US literature - there absolutely has been a marked shift in what kinds of books are widely read over the past ~50 years. It also slots into some of my own themes around "what happened to all the capital-g Great People" discourse - will there be a new crop of "American Authors" a la Hemingway, Updike, etc, or is that passé, and if so why? Yingling (correctly imo) pushes back on the "death of literary fiction" as being something created wholesale by the internet and trends like declining attention spans - the death happened well before the internet took over everything (it was firmly established by the 2000's), and people do in fact read long books, just as much as they used to (most people never read hefty literature in any era).

Yingling instead posits that this shift is also not due to a change in reader taste, but instead more in "supply" - the death of easy revenue streams for literary authors, changes in how publishers operate, the chasing of awards and genre niches over general readers. To simplify, he believes that one could be an Updike of Our Era, if only one of sufficient talent truly tried and the gatekeepers pivoted to encouraging that. There is truth to the supply issues, but here I think he is overreaching - the supply is instead reflecting the changing demand.

This error is most exemplified in one of his arguments around why it hasn't changed, namely that people still read old literary fiction:

For one, people still read plenty of literary fiction, what they don’t read is contemporary literary fiction. Books like Pride and Prejudice, War and Peace, The Brothers Karamazov, etc still sell many thousands of copies every year, more than even big hits in contemporary literary fiction.5 And look at any survey of contemporary audiences' favorite books. Plenty of literary fiction there.6 So I think there’s a strong enough warrant here that the ‘taste-change’ hypothesis can’t be right either — unless the internet made people’s tastes magically shift away from contemporary literary fiction but not classics.

I don't specifically blame the internet, but I think this is revealing about the author's blindspots - people's tastes absolutely "magically shift" to classics over contemporary works! There is this thing, it is called status? Humans love it, they do so much because of it, and sometimes they even read books due to it! People are reading classic literature precisely because it is classic, it is "the canon". They are also Schelling Points to make reading social - you can easily form a book club around Wuthering Heights because everyone is "supposed" to read it; no one has to read whatever is #46 on the bestseller list today. That in fact drives a lot of media consumption more generally - people read the "hot new thing" and the classics so they can be a part of the wider conversation of society.

From this lens, from where the conversation is, I think you can see more shifts in the demand side that our author misses. He compares the best selling fiction of the 1960's, which was mainly literary fiction, to a sample from 2023:

It Ends with Us by Colleen Hoover It Starts with Us by Colleen Hoover Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros Atomic Habits by James Clear2 Dog Man: Twenty Thousand Fleas Under the Sea by Dav Pilkey

Which highlights that three of the five are romance novels (the others are a kid's book, which I don't think says anything, they don't "compete" with literary fiction; and a... nonfiction self-help book? So a typo by the list makers? Let's just ignore that). Now, for one, I would note that this being heavily female is saying a lot about how demand has changed, but that is a bit too obvious to belabor. Instead, I wanna interrogate that word "romance" - I don't think it means what the author wants it to. Let's look at It Ends With Us:

The story follows florist Lily Bloom, whose abusive relationship with neurosurgeon Ryle Kincaid is compounded when her high school boyfriend Atlas Corrigan re-enters her life. It explores themes of domestic violence and emotional abuse. Based on the relationship between her mother and father, Hoover described it as "the hardest book I've ever written".

I'm not saying this is Blood Meridian or anything, but this isn't Harlequin either - it is blending romance tropes with the introspective, the memoir, and some topical politics. At the same time that "literary fiction" has declined, other genres have "grown up" - they cover a lot more diverse ground, targeting demos more specifically and expanding their narrative and thematic scope.

There have been several literary cultural movements specifically playing with this kind of broadening - the decline of lit fic coincidenced with the "memoir boom" of the 90's & 2000's, where "ordinary people" wrote creative-fiction-esque retrospectives on their lives, which you can see covers a lot of similar ground. Hell, to tie it back into gender a bit, if I wanted a serious story about politics & war back in the day, pulp fantasy wasn't gonna do that for you - but it will today! The 2000's was an entire decade of fantasy novels "growing up" (ymmv on how well ofc), and you can get your discourses on the nature of fascism Star Wars™ flavored if that is your tea.

Yingling essentially rests his hat on the idea of the "general reader" being out there still, like literary fiction has deserted them. But I think at least in part, this is a story of evolution, not devolution; in the 1970's we didn't make enough non-general literature to make specialists of the masses. But we do now, they have learned what they like, and aren't particularly interested in coming back to generalist fare. With caveats ofc, there were always be the Hot New Thing and universal appeal, etc - but being sufficiently talented is not going to make that the standard again.

[taylor-titmouse]

SO i've mentioned it here in passing a few times that my day job is graphic novels, but i haven't much promoted anything because i was waiting to get closer to release, and also it's YA and about teenagers and not, you know. what i usually post about here. but now that the first book releases at the end of the month (Feb 25th!) i figured i should point you guys toward it! this is my ~debut~ in traditional publishing, a completely original work (in that i wrote and illustrated it myself) and, imo, very very good and you should get it.

right now until midnight 2/7 there is a sale on barnes & noble where if you use the code PREORDER25 you can get 25% off on a pre-order of it! i Highly recommend getting the hardcover, i just got a shipment of my comp copies and they're fckin gorgeous. but paperback and ebooks are also available.

anyway you're probably curious what it's about, so here's the sales copy!

A specter is haunting the Atlantic! After growing up together on the luxurious SS Lark, Neeta Pandey and Emery Botwright are ready to start their lives. Emery wants to follow in his father’s footsteps and sail the Lark forever, while Neeta yearns to travel the world. But neither will have any future at all if the Lark’s new owner, Mr. Honeycutt, has his way.   Mr. Honeycutt . . . The first-class passengers adore him, while he makes the ship a nightmare for the crew. Twisted by unnatural appetites, the rich are actually transforming into something less than human, and their insatiable demands soon push the staff toward a—quite literal— burnout.   Something otherworldly is undeniably aboard the SS Lark, something horribly hungry. But it’s not Wick Farley: vampire, secret agent, and paranormal investigator. Alone and at sea, with only Neeta and Emery to help him, he must uncover the truth about Mr. Honeycutt. And fast—before a ravenous craving for power consumes them all. 

i've been working really hard on this thing (first started developing it in 2019!) and it's super exciting to be able to hold it in my hands, and i want YOU to also hold it.

if you don't want to get it from b&n or miss the sale, you can also get it from bookshop.org, booksamillion, or just your local bookstore/library if you ask 'em. definitely do ask your library, that's still a sale for me!

anyway thank you for checking out this slight diversion from the usual fare. i'll try to have something more in line with the regular programming for tonight, but pwease buy my book :^) my first Real book :^)

[alicethenobody]

A lot of people think Dante hates Patty or has a bad relationship with her and honestly I kinda blame DMC5 for this because there’s missing context for the phone call scene that’s in the novel.

Basically in the novel it’s explained the reason Dante hung up on her is because he’s very uncomfortable with the idea of going to a birthday party full of regular civilians due to bis dangerous lifestyle. He even makes it a point that he doesn’t dislike Patty but he does question why she likes hanging out with him so much. Despite his discomfort though, he says he plans to go see her anyways, presumably after the party has died down, showing he understands how much seeing him would mean to her.

Should he have maybe said this instead of hanging up? Yeah probably but maybe he assumed Patty wouldn’t take it well if he tried to explain himself, and she CAN be somewhat stubborn/insistent when it comes to getting Dante to do things. Not hating on Patty ofc, the only reason she does that with him is because she has his best interest in mind. She wants him to take care of himself and probably get out more too.

I’d actually argue Patty is one of Dante’s healthiest bonds. She’s one of the few people in his life who is IMO upfront about how much she cares about him, and her being around notably made Dante much happier as the anime went on. He went from constantly wanting to be alone unless he was needed for killing demons to regularly playing cards with Patty or taking her out for ice cream, and that change happened because of Patty simply being there. Yes, he gets annoyed with her sometimes, but only in the same way siblings often annoy each other. If anything I personally see it as a sign of how comfortable they are around each other, because from my personal experience my closest friends and I tease each other all the time. Their banter is almost always playful/comedic and I can’t name a single time he ever got genuinely angry with her. And the one time he accidentally upset her with a joke he made he felt really bad about it.

Idk I just wish their relationship stopped being so misunderstood. Patty ran into hell because she wanted to save Dante despite the danger she’d be putting herself in and started crying because she didn’t want to say goodbye to him. Ntm she regretted not being able to thank him yet for everything he’s ever done for her. I think that speaks volumes how much they mean to each other.

[justsome-di]

The ai shit with nano imo really emphasizes the more toxic part of nano that I was starting to notice overtake the whole month

I've seen people really sacrifice a lot for NaNo--skipping classes, staying up late every single night of the month--and there was an attitude some had that if you missed the first few days, there was no point in doing it all because you wouldn't be able to catch up in time.

The spirit of NaNo should have always been that it was just a fun challenge. The process of writing and the community surrounding it was supposed to be just as fulfilling as hitting the goal--if you could. I remember the first time I attempted it when I was 14, and it was fun even if you got nowhere near 50k! You got to talk about writing, and you got to share your story ideas, and you got to read about other poeple's wips.

But when I was hearing that people were ruining their sleep schedule or sacrificing their education or personal health all for the sake of 50k, it starts to feel like "winning" was more important than anything else. And it started to turn writing into an all-consuming, unhealthy thing for some people.

I was starting to question everything about NaNo a few years ago because it was starting to get elitist how people were talking about their novels. And then how it felt like the people winning were holding that 50k to be more important than anything.

And it's just my experience, I know, but when I tried getting into forums on the site a few years ago--they were dead. When I joined a Discord server, no one wanted to talk to each other but really just wanted to talk at one another. I was seeing a lot of pretentious bragging about hitting word goals and then when people wanted to genuinely connect and talk--silence.

It was like if you couldn't get your ego stroked, there was no point in talking.

And now that the org has said that AI is okay to help hit 50k, I think that that really sums up the shift in attitude I was seeing. It's not about the process anymore. It's not about finding a spot in a community. It's not about having fun. It's about getting a badge on the internet and bragging rights.

I know there's people still out there who genuinely keep up the spirit of NaNo (though those people seem to be moving on lol), and those people are going to be the backbone of whatever comes next. I really hope that this whole thing starts a resurgence in community-lead events that are completed for fun and not clout.

[patricia-taxxon]

I really enjoyed Allirontalks total deconstruction of Joseph Anderson's The Witness video that immediately made me understand why The Witness really walks the walk, where the base broke anyway, and the kind of philosophy it bumps up against. A lot of criticism I hear seems like a regurgitation of his unbelievably bad-faith experience he had with it so it's fun to see someone explain that

Okay, I had some issues with Anderson's video too, but this response is anemic, I'm having trouble getting through it. The assertion that Joe doesn't like puzzle games or being challenged is very unfair and inaccurate. When he says he found the theatre videos to be drawn out and unwelcome she just insists that they're optional, when like, I'd argue that they're extremely essential, and Joe didn't play himself by trying to give the game's philosophical content a good faith effort even if it left him cold. She makes fun of him for not understanding the shipwreck puzzle and then fails to accurately explain it herself??

She fundamentally misunderstands many of the points that Anderson makes in a way that feels like she just didn't give herself to them. When Joe says "I got this quickly, but I can imagine someone missing this and not being able to reason through it, which is why I'm so conflicted." She responds "Well, he complains when he doesn't get it quickly, AND he explains it when he gets it quickly, hypocrite much??" which is a baffling level of missing the point. The repeated comments at the fact that Joseph links his novels in the descriptions of his videos are also just, cruel? She references Dan Olson's video on Doug Walker and The Wall, and it feels like she wants Joe to be her Doug, but he's just not? Idk, he's not stupid, imo.

She's right that he misrepresents Rupert Spira, and she's right that Joseph is overall extremely closed minded regarding art that is abstract or subjective or asks you to bring some of yourself to it, but her repeated attempts to turn Joe into her Doug is just asinine and horrible to sit through.

[storybookprincess]

i really do think that the perennial "fanfic vs published literature" debate misses a crucial point -- namely, that fanfic and trad lit are written for very different reasons. fanfic has gone fairly "mainstream," (which imo is a huge part of the problem), but it used to be generally understood that you wrote fic primarily out of a profound love for the source material, not with the intention of writing a short story or novel that was going to stand on its own. it wasn't a matter of whether fanfic was supposed to hold up to or replace or compete with trad fic -- it was a matter of being an obsessive freak who couldn't stop thinking about a certain story

yeah, okay, a decade ago, admitting you read and wrote fanfic in an irl social setting did have a non-zero chance of getting you publicly drawn & quartered, but at least everyone within fandom was generally on the same page about what we were all doing here

fanfic was never meant to do numbers on twitter -- it was, at its heart, about fandom. about how all that passion & intensity & obsession bubbled up inside of you until you just had to create something. i realize i'm being very oldmanyellsatcloud.jpg about this, but at times i find myself wishing our subculture stayed a little more sub, you know?

[thevoiceoflove1993]

as it is pride month here's my personal interpretation of the timeline of my favorite fictional gay couple's (k/s) relationship that no one has asked for. based on only having watched the shows (tos + tas) and the original series movies and having read the motion picture novelization (meaning i don't have any background knowledge of whatever some canon comic book or whatever says abt what happened in between these shows/movies) (this also means tas is still canon to me and i see it as taking place after tos, like idec!)

under a cut bc my poor non-trek followers and anyone not interested don't have to scroll past All That lol

tos + tas: they go from respecting to liking to on top of that being attracted to and having romantic feelings for each other but being in denial abt it/repressing it most of the time. but at some point they do reach some level of internal awareness abt it but they don't act on their feelings; spock bc of his issues with/fear of emotions and kirk bc of his feelings of having to prioritize his professional responsibilities, and not wanting to overwhelm spock and destroy what they have/take advantage of him as a subordinate officer.

post-tas (at the end of the 5 year mission): something happens to make spock run away and decide to do kolinahr, i.e. his feelings for kirk have become so strong he can't ignore/deal with it anymore, or there is some kind of confession from kirk, or maybe they even kiss like once and spock can't deal with it. either way i always thought this makes sense bc big life changes like in this case their impending seperation due to the end of the mission often facilitate contemplation, realizations, emotional outbursts, etc.

so spock goes to vulcan to re-immerse himself in vulcan philosophy and purge himself of his emotions; kirk is heartbroken but tries to move on by making a change to his career (going from captain to admiral, not commanding a starship anymore) and goes on a rebound with that woman he eventually marries whose name i forgot (sorry) but the marriage fails and he feels unsatisfied w his professional life as well

tmp: kirk is still unsatisfied w his life and clings to the illusion that getting back to the enterprise will make him feel the way he did before the 5 year mission ended. however when he gets there he quickly realizes that everything has changed and that it isn't the place (the enterprise) he misses but instead the time and circumstances that he can't return to. which includes spock, who isn't there.

then as we know spock comes back, noticeably colder and standoffish which hurts and angers kirk, who wants to go back to the close relationship they used to have, while spock is on a completely different page still chasing absolute logic devoid of feeling. then after mind melding with v'ger spock finally realizes he doesn't actually want a life without feelings and communicates that to kirk along with his regret over what happened between them ("i should have known" etc)

post-tmp/between tmp and the wrath of khan: imo they get together after tmp, anything else wouldn't make sense to me lol. they're very in love but still have issues for example i would think spock still struggles with accepting his emotional side from time to time, especially in the beginning, and they don't always communicate well. a lot of time passes between these films so i don't have a detailed timeline for all these years but basically i think they're in a relationship but it's a relationship that isn't entirely satisfying bc both of them still have to work on themselves.

wrath of khan: they've been together for years and love each other a lot and spock is comfortable with his feelings (we see in the movie he openly talks abt them, even in front of others, like when he tells jim to be careful even though bones is right there). however kirk feels insecure in their relationship and is once again unsatisfied bc their careers have seperated them again, but he can't admit that and, just as he always has, tells himself their jobs are more important than having their personal feelings pandered to. spock reassures him he still loves him and is committed to him even if they can't see each other often. due to the events of the movie they then get to be together on the enterprise again and kirk is happy abt it. then (spoiler) spock sacrifices himself to save the crew and kirk is in shock and devastated after his death.

the search for spock: the movie is so gay i feel like i don't even have to say anything abt how i interpret it bc that's basically just the movie lmao. kirk is absolutely spock-obsessed and his relief when he gets him back in the end is so beautiful. basically kirk learns that always putting his professional responsibilities first doesn't make him happy.

post-tsfs: kirk realizes spock doesn't remember everything (yet) and that they can't just go back to being together. he's sad abt it but he hasn't given up on them or anything, he's giving spock time and is committed to waiting for him.

the whale movie: spock still doesn't remember everything and kirk struggles with that. spock re-discovers himself, this time learning abt emotions in a more healthy way than during his original upbringing.

after the voyage home: at some point spock regains all his memories and kirk and him get together again. i don't wanna write abt the last two movies bc imo most of the development regarding k/s happens earlier. basically i think that after the voyage home their relationship is more successful due to all they've been through individually and together. in the final movie we ofc have lots of k/s drama but they give such old married couple vibes in this that i think they're just going through a rough patch. but they still love each other and are together/married.

also after all of this they retire together to some beautiful place and get to finally just chill (and i think kirk struggles with just chilling but that spock teaches him how to appreciate peace and quiet, and eventually he grows to like it), and nobody dies alone or has to live on without the other for decades. the end.

[gogandmagog]

Anne of the Island, Chapter One!

And wellll, I guess I’m actually starting off before chapter one! And it’s two things, really.

First, this inclusion, before Maud even adds her own sweet dedication:

I sometimes wonder how many then-contemporary readers saw this, knew the whole source, and fully took it as a spoiler… either way, it’s pretty clever. These four lines of Tennyson are taken from the poem “the Day-Dream,” specifically from the third part called, “the Arrival.” And maybe predictably, it’s about the Fairy Prince’s arrival into the titular Day Dreamers (who btw reverts inward to avoid harsh realities, in case it wasn’t Anne enough already) life. And of course anyone who’s already read Anne of the Island will know that this is a huge theme in the overall arc of the novel. I also like that Maud took this little verse patch in particular, because it aligns sooo precisely with Anne and Gilbert’s romantic beginnings… the ‘precious thing discovered late,’ for sure, but also in mention of the drawing of ‘the veil’. Anne of the Island directly follows Anne of Avonlea, which ended nicely with Miss Lavendar’s wedding to Stephen Irving, and very importantly, also this kind of naked moment between Anne and Gilbert where they each recognise their shared future and feelings, and the narrative says, “...it was as if a veil that had hung before her [Anne’s, that is] inner consciousness had been lifted, giving to her view a revelation of unsuspected feelings…” So, yeah. This epigraph is pretty much perfect.

Besides which, I also want to be even more extra annoying, and say that Tennyson is already in general a reocurring soft spot for Anne and Gilbert. It’s Anne’s playing at Tennyson’s Lady of Shalott that sees Gilbert saving her life for the first time, and it’s that near-drowning that ushers in Anne’s real forgiveness for Gilbert’s old slight. Other things too! Later in the series, when Gilbert pronounces Captain Jim dead, he uses a Tennysonism and tells her that Captain Jim has “crossed the bar.” (Here’s Crossing the Bar, just in case.) LATER later, in Anne of Ingleside, Nan mentions Anne “read to her one night from the old volume of Tennyson Father had given her long, long ago…” + many more such cases, and imo just cute.

But really, onto Chapter One! The Shadow of Change.

A slam dunk of a title. The Shadow of Change could nearly be considered a proper character in this chapter because it’s eeeeverywhere. There’s liminal space for like miles, in all directions. There are obvious things, spelled out to the reader, in grocery-list fashion... the season is changing from summer to fall, Diana is engaged to Fred Wright, Anne is leaving Avonlea behind for college, and Mrs. Rachel is moving into Green Gables. I could almost cite this whole opener when trying to pick out a chapter highlight, because Maud’s prose is so visceral here, on hopes and anxiety. I always get a real lump in my throat about it. But there are other things changing, too. When Gilbert overtakes Anne on the bridge, they're lingering over their past, rather literally. It's only been one tiny week since the events of Anne of Avonlea, where an "unseen finger" turned the page on Anne's girlhood, leaving before her "womanhood, with all its charm and mystery." Gilbert was midwife to that transition, and now here he is again, placing his hand over Anne's, and teasing out a brand new (and involuntary) womanhoody physiological reaction, one "not strictly sensible,” from her, to top it all off. And even though it kind of scares her (I feel like this is a good point to remember that while Anne is 18 here, Gilbert is nearly 21, which imo kind of contributes to him being in an awkward position; kind of one-or-two-steps-ahead of Anne, and perpetually needing to wait for her to catch up), Anne's still reflecting on the pleasantness of his touch, later toooo... complete with a dig at poor Charlie Sloane lmao.

Also, really fast, when Gilbert's mentioning that Kingsport "has the finest natural park in the world", the Maud scholars, when it comes up for them, like to supplement this postcard! Since fictional Kingsport is based on non-fictional Halifax, Point Pleasant Park is evidentally the likely inspo behind for Kingsport's nameless park.

Okay, what else??

Davy. Davy is the original Sour Patch Kid. First he says something sour, and then he says something sweet. But for me… the first big laugh of this book is always, “But if you did want to catch a man, how would you go about it? I want to know.” 💀 Can you imagine?

Now anyway, I’m sure this post is full of ugly typos and bad syntax and incomplete thoughts but it’s 11:50 and I’m for bed! But I’m so excited to be reading this book with so many friends. I always learn so many new things from you guys!

[plaidos]

Sorry if someone else has asked this before and I missed it- do you think the books are a good way to read/experience homestuck, or should I commit to trying to do it online? I have a much easier time focusing on print and I think that might be why I haven’t made it very far in the past, but I know they do a lot of really fascinating stuff with the format and I don’t wanna totally disregard that.

you should definitely, definitely read it electronically the first time — there are interactive sections, animated sections, sections with music, sections with gameplay. There are print books but they’re more like items for collectors, they’re out of print, and crucially, even if you could find them, they don’t even reach Homestuck’s halfway point (they stopped making new volumes of the print editions).

the best way to read Homestuck for a first time reader is installing the Unofficial Homestuck Collection (as opposed the official website, which has been broken since the death of shockwave flash) on a computer or laptop or similar. I have it installed on my Steamdeck even.

i totally feel you when you say you get on better with print, i totally get that, but i’m gonna tell you the same (or the reverse) of what i tell people when they ask me if they could read House of Leaves as an ebook: the medium is an absolutely fundamental, foundational part of the art.

if it helps you to read more, try treating it like a videogame instead of a book or comic, and try envisioning yourself as the player of a low-interactivity visual novel; in a way, Homestuck is meant to be viewed through this lens, so i think it helps to encourage yourself to see it that way. The Unofficial Collection actually “unlocks” bonus material as you progress through it by only showing you the extra content after you hit a certain pagecount (so as to not spoil you for anything even conceptually) and it is really, really satisfying to get shown the ‘new’ albums, side comics etc as you penetrate deeper into the comic, so it really feels videogame-y in a way that has helped my workshop’s attendees get on with the comic better.

the other thing i recommend to new readers who find it difficult to stick with it is to try reading some of the dialogue aloud, maybe with a friend who’s already read Homestuck (or another new reader you can rope in on your bullshit) reading the other part; Homestuck is in a sense a play as much as it is a comic/game, and its story is told through dialogue so it really comes alive when performed out loud imo.

as mentioned, i also host a Homestuck new reader workshop which any new reader is welcome to join in on, but we’re currently on hiatus won’t be starting a new class for a little while — but if you were interested, i could write your url down and let you know should it start back up. the group readings really help!

[anithemonsterlover]

hmm call me an Erik apologist all you want, but after thinking it well, i think the complaints people have about "sexy phantoms" and how "adaptations never adapt POTO well, they romanticize the story too much, it's a horror story not a romance" are kinda...unfounded?

Yeah you can make a potential argument about adaptations missing the mark, removing the deformity from Erik (which shapes Erik's whole character), and that...But also...how much is this true, and how much this has been exaggerated by really one or modern interpretations?

And i wonder...is it really? Phantom has had such a number of different adaptations all over the years, from different creative minds, and each of them presented a different view on Erik. Do most of them not adapt the book? Yes (as in no birth deformity, no Daroga, no scorpion or grasshopper, etc etc). Do they really change the main themes and mood presented in the novel, turning it more erotic? Are really all adaptations with a "sexy Erik and cucked Raoul!", as critics state? Heem, let's take a look.

We'll mostly analyze the big film adaptations, since Phantom has been told over and over again in different books, comics, videogames, tv shows, and it would take us A LOT to go through every one (also let's be realistic...we have to analyze the most "well known" Phantom adaptations so to see if the critics' words hold some water. I don't think it would make much sense to point out a Phantom adaptation that has these elements but like...only four people know of it lol)

Lon Chaney...Nope. Erik was still deformed, and the few sympathetic traits he has were erased to give him a boring clichéd "kill the monster" ending, going against what the book stated, where Erik dies of a broken heart and not lynched (curiously, how the same people that go "we must portray the book accurately, not show him sympathetically" don't mind this change, huh)

Claude Rains...Nope. Still ugly, dies by the end. No sexuality. Even the "love triangle" element is changed so that it focuses on Christine and her being annoyed by the two Raouls.

Herbert Lom...Still ugly and dies. This adaptation even cuts his attraction to Christine yet keeps his obsession with music, even cuts down his biggest crimes to lay it on the hands of his sidekick (imo this is probably the most "sympathetic" Phantom, imo, since he's interpreted as an artist who had his art stolen, only wanting to "get back" at the thieves; but nobody talks of him when discussing sympathetic Phantoms)

Phantom of the Paradise...Still ugly, loses, but like Herbert Lom, redeems himself through death.

Maximillian Schell...Ugly, dies by the end.

Cartoon - Ugly, dies, Christine doesn't go with him. This is the most book accurate novel but in another angle, haha (Daroga is here, death's head, abusive mother...not exactly what the smart ass critics want ;)).

Robert Englund...Ugly, loses, doesn't get Christine...In fact I'd claim this is probably the most villainous version of Erik, turning him into more of a Freddy Krueger clone than the complicated character Erik truly is. Really amps up the horror for all those "IT'S A HORROR STORY" smart-ass critics if they're so desperate for an "accurate" version (Erik didn't flay people in the novel, iirc, so, so much for "being accurate to the novel"!)

ALW-verse / the musical / Gerard Butler film / Love Never Dies / Phantom of Manhattan (i'm placing all of this in the same venue because basically, it's really the same universe / canon, ergo we're really talking about the same intrepretation / the same creator). Ugliness is there, but sorta downplayed...This verse often ends with Erik and Christine getting together...yup, this is the one version where the criticism is legit.

Charles Dance / Yeston Kopit musical / Takarazuka (again, same universe, same creator, same interpretation). Possibly the nicest Erik yet, but he's still deformed, and he still doesn't get Christine. He's sympathetic, a little romantic, but I don't think it's on the same league as the sexuality present in Point of no Return's lyrics or Gerard Butler's open puffy shirts.

Susan Kay's novel - This one is interesting because it takes a lot from the musical (i'd argue even more from that than the novel), and then influenced the musical and future iterations of it (this novel amps up the sexy angle A LOT), so I'm not sure to categorize it as its own thing or added to the musical verse. But, still...it follows the plot points from ALW (and elements we see in future installments of ALW's POTO, like the secret child, first appeared in Kay, i think, based on publication dates), yet Erik is still hideous, but his sexuality is present in the novel...as well as his murderous tendencies. This is the one version that combines elements of both horror and sex, imo.

Dario Argento - for fuck's sakes, nobody likes this version, lol, and even the normies don't know of it. BUT ANYWAY, IF WE'RE GONNA MAKE THE COMPARISON....Not deformed, "gets Christine", in a way, but woof this version also amps up the horror and has the most unlikable Erik of them all imo.

And everything else...Do people really care or know about those versions? Wishbone's or the other musicals, or the ass long number of books? Not really...

So really...the number of Phantom adaptations that have a "sexy, romantic" Erik can be chalked up to 2-3...against all the other adaptations that keep the horror elements or have Erik still looking horrible. And the great majority of them keep it in canon with the original ending- ea Erik dies and Christine goes with Raoul (it's really only Kay's novel and LND that have the "sexy Erik cucks Raoul" interpretation...and LND has always always always been mocked and rejected by the fans)

So it's people really throwing a tantrum over the ALW version being popular, really. (And i'm really curious how they don't mind when Erik is turned more villainous, like in Lon Chaney or Robert Englund's version, even though those are also inaccurate to the novel. (Erik wasn't a sexy doomed hero, no, but he also wasn't this Freddy Krueger bastard.) Funny that).

[roadtohell]

finally saw the lotr musical!! thoughts under the cut

my expectations were to have fun and enjoy the music. frankly i was thinking the book was going to be a total hot mess from a theatrical point of view. it was, in fact, perfectly serviceable! pacing-wise it felt just a little rushed especially in the final push towards mount doom - the actual destruction of the ring in particular really needed more gravitas. but overall issues were nowhere near as much as i feared. while plot points were very condensed the only thing i felt was super handwaved was gandalf reappearing just fine after being trapped by saruman.

i loved the music, i knew i would ever since i got obsessed with lothlorien a decade ago. but i was really impressed with the quality of arrangements and playing. onstage bands with actors playing seems to be increasingly common but this is the first musical i've seen that tries (and succeeds) to evoke a full orchestra at points. the brass in particular adds such an important richness to the score. and i loved the fact that it was completely unapologetic about things like gimli whipping out a guitar in the mines of moria (and not one that could be considered an axe). it truly added to the sense of collective storytelling. also, bilbo playing the harmonica is perfect. also also, ent boomwhackers.

costumes were somewhat hit-and-miss for me, boromir's being by far my least favourite. why was that breastplate so loose! i didn't mind the gas mask orcs though. and i really dug the colour-coded kurta-like elf costumes, as well as gimli's design (distinctly earthy and dwarvish despite the actor being one of the taller members of the fellowship from what i could tell).

i liked the stage design, particularly the wood knot at the back doubling as a door, projector screen and eye of sauron. special effects, like the script, did the job and not a lot more. which i understand given the scope of the production. the introduction of shelob was really sick though. and sometimes one moment like that is all you need.

the cast was overall a very solid ensemble cast. of note, on this night stefanie caccamo was on for galadriel and ruby clark on for arwen. they both had a lot of presence and sounded phenomenal. i'd always kind of wondered why those two characters had such prominent songs in the musical but i get it now.

gollum was perfect, 10/10, no notes. while i think the audience took him a bit more comedically at certain points than they should have, imo it was really more down to the script than him.

frodo and sam were excellent and had great chemistry. no notes for them either, though i suppose they could have upped the homoeroticism lol

i really enjoyed gandalf and bilbo, both nailing their respective brands of old man humour.

i was kind of lukewarm on strider and boromir, however rob mallett did sell me on his kingly speeches. i think rohan campbell felt like the weakest link acting-wise - boromir came across as more boyish and inexperienced than strongwilled and proud to me.

idk if there's a better way to sheath daggers but poor legolas always seemed to take a while to do it properly. but maybe it's just a practice thing. otherwise there's no way you'd realise it was his first performance (afaik) compared against anyone else, standing up well to gimli who was great.

all in all this show exceeded my expectations! i had a blast and i would definitely recommend it to both lotr fans and people who enjoy somewhat novel musical experiences.

---

cast (this list maaaay not be completely accurate as i didn't see the At This Performance tv. but i was second row so i got a pretty decent look)

frodo - rarmian newton sam - wern mak merry - cameron davey pippin - hannah buckley gandalf - terence crawford gimli - connor morel legolas - hanlon innocent strider - rob mallett boromir - rohan campbell gollum - laurence boxhall saruman - ian stenlake bilbo - laurence coy galadriel - stefanie caccamo arwen - ruby clark elrond - andrew broadbent

[evangelifloss]

I feel like Maria Ushiromiya is Umineko's litmus test for not only your general empathy towards children (because let's be honest, society doesn't regard kids as people deserving of respect) but also your reading comprehension and how far you've gotten into Umineko.

Anime onlies even from episode 1 have always notoriously applauded Rosa beating Maria for exhibiting "abnormal" or "annoying" behaviours and there's SO many meme gifs of a 9 year old being slapped (Rose garden scene). And even when they reach the adaption of Maria's backstory arc, you'll always see people yet again claiming "She deserved it" or that Rosa was valid. These types of people generally dont believe in a child's autonomy, nor have empathy if that child is in some way irritating.

And for those that completely changed their mind and realised that Maria was actually someone that was a victim, they too aren't excused from their previous opinions of how Rosa treats her daughter. They still thought that since Maria was annoying, she deserved to be verbally and physically assaulted.

However when you talk to Umineko readers, you find that "population" of Maria haters remains niche or in consistent decline. This only becomes further cemented through the backstory arc in the novel (which imo was done far better than the anime), but this is also where the reading comprehension comes in.

Alot of the time, readers miss the point of Ryukishi's writing concerning Maria and settle on the idea that there's some sort of "grey area" regarding Rosa's treatment of her daughter. The novel explicitly explains that what she does is abhorrent and that it ISNT a morally grey subject matter.

I will also acknowledge that Ryukishi also explores Rosa's problems and perspectives too, of her own trauma that leads into the abuse of Maria, but never once does the narrative seek to excuse it or paint the situation as something other than truly cruel. It is a perfect expression of the cycle of abuse within families and as difficult it is to read/watch Rosa internally struggle with her guilt over her violence, she never actually changes her behavior.

If you cannot at least empathise with Maria, how on earth will you be able to understand the struggles of Beatrice, and the meaning behind the narrative itself?

[silviakundera]

I've seen you discuss this with other people but I've only made the jump from J dramas to C ones where it's mostly about romance and are c writers allergic women making the same effort in a relationship or... Granted I've only watched dramas from this year at first I thought it was just historical stuff but it's not it's practically every romance drama will love in spring-snowstorm-love endures-in blossom-double-shenli-royal princess-my boss-our interpreter and so on. If she's not outright treating him badly he's a cirque du Soleil contortionist trying to please her and she's not even in the circus don't they know balance is key to everything? Different dramas should have different bonds it's quite concerning that it's just one thing almost every time I think it speaks to a larger issue or maybe I'm overthinking it

idk what to tell you anon. It may simply be that chinese dramas are not to your taste and that's ok. I tried the occasional kdrama for years and didn't really fall in love with many... Most jdramas don't engage me. But when I tried a few cdramas it was like love at first sight. Something about the stories they want to tell, the themes they explore, and the characters they tend to portay just hooks me. And that's a very personal thing.

All I can share is that as a middle-aged corporate lesbian girlboss... a surprising amount cdramas have connected with me about how they explore a woman who is career focused & has to balance that with developing a romantic relationship and then maintaining one.

And when I'm consuming a romance storyline, what preocupies me is if I find it interesting, if the characters both feel vibrant & dynamic, if I can see how they might work together. Do their broken pieces fit? Can I see a path where eventually they can reach a point of mutual understanding, where both are fulfilled? Do I get their vibe? Do they have a unique vibe? Do I believe they like each other, as people? Or at least, do I see a clear path where they will be/have these things by the end of the story?

That's what dictates if I want to keep watching/reading a romance. Personally, I don't spend a lot of time weighing up perceived effort/favors and needing things to be perceived as "even". I would not want to date a person who thinks like that, because I find that idea stressful and off-putting! 🙈 If the people are happy, then they're happy! If neither feels abused & taken advantage of, if they're clearly content, then I don't need to calculate 'same effort' parity.

But that's just me! Everyone is different. And you don't have to overthink or justify what TV you like or don't like. Maybe cdramas aren't for you. That's all good. But please don't ask me to engage with romance this way, it kinda poisons it for me and makes things a bummer. 😔

I simply cannot say that I share your perspective. For instance, I thought Shen Li was a drama with a great otp who had priorities that did not always align but ultimately they ended up in a beautiful relationship with unconventional gender dynamics and in the finale they are clearly super happy & fulfilled together.

The Princess Royal isn't finished yet but lemme say their love in the novel is EPIC. Absolute one of the otps of all time for me. Better characters than most western historical romance novels I've read. If you look at the small stuff and try to weight who did this or that as a series of transactions, imo you are missing the beauty of how these 2 people took a lifetime of getting everything wrong before being ready for each other - but now they are ready, they are listening to each other and remembering to come back with kindness for each other and moving foward into a bond that's truly beautiful. Yeah, it takes almost the whole novel to get there. But IT DOES. No one loves Pei Wenxuan harder than Li Rong, sees the true value of Pei Wenxuan more than Li Rong, and no one will come to his ferocious rescue like Li Rong. I feel like I could cite 35 quotes to prove my point, it's that clear in the text.

a few of the modern cdrama couples who made me want to believe in love again:

Lighter & Princess - academic rivals to lovers to exes to ????, a drama that snuck up on me and slowly made me lose my mind. Best experience is to be unspoiled and thus surprised about where the story takes you. A long winding road, with some huge dips, before they reach a place where they have a beautiful hard-earned partnership. Makes me emotional just to think about them.

Hidden Love is a simple but beautifully acted tale about a sheltered & gently spoiled girl who falls in love with one of her older brother's best friends. Such a common romance plot but the execution is everything. The characters feel warm & real. FL's bittersweet young love tugs at your heart strings. I was impressed at how they crafted the platonic bond she forms with a lonely young man weighed down by financial & emotional family burdens, which later blooms into a mutual affection that enriches both their lives, and it all feels very natural. You really feel that their lives are immeasurably better by being together. Sang Zhi's protectiveness towards him is so !!!

Vid Rec: Seven by SakinaMv (who I've subscribed to for a long time)

You Are My Glory, which has a very silly sounding concept but ended up one of my fav comfort shows. Beautiful teen girl has a crush on the local school genius and asks him out; he politely rejects her, dismissing her efforts to connect because he can't see what they would have in common. 13 years later, he's a rocket scientist and she's become one of the top idols in china. She's at the peak of her profession but having a tiny PR mishap when caught repping a video game that she actually doesn't play. He's taking a leave from work as he struggles with the economic realities of picking a job that consumes your life but pays like shit. She's looking for help to learn this damn game & cover her ass; she still has his chat ID and he's online with nothing better to do. Once they start interacting, her crush on him returns & he starts to realize that that person he had discounted may actually be that confidant who can walk beside him? My dad was poor scientist who 'wasted' his intelligence following his passion, so I found ML's turmoil especially compelling. [Note: quite a bit of video game playing in the 1st half of the drama (as this is the driver for a celebrity and an unemployed scientist to hang out), then almost none in the second half]

Vid Rec: Stargazing by dramasaffair

Vid Rec: Flashlight by HânAlli (turn on CC)

The Road Home, a second chance romance of 2 people who come from rough home-lifes who fell in love when young but couldn't handle a long distance relationship. Then they meet many years later and try a long distance relationship again. I love me a couple who I can believe just get each other and make each other happier when they are together.

Meet Yourself - a slice-of-life story about a woman whose best friend dies, so she quits her job out of grief to go take the simple vacation that they would talk about doing but never got around to. And naturally she finds herself immersed in village drama and finds a soulmate (big city career woman goes to a small town and falls in love with small town boy is a HUGE american romance cliche, and one I've never enjoyed, so I was surprised at how much I liked this)

Vid Rec - MK916 can always be counted on to publish tons of quality cdrama couple vids

[struggling-jpg]

Some Things About Ma Feima (Yanqing) I Learned

And it matters to HSR Yanqing only because some people have had what they heard about Ma Feima affect their views of him even though it really SHOULDN'T imo.

The underlying point I'm trying to get at is that when we hear about parts of a story or characters we aren't familiar with, it'd be fairer to at least try to look into it more before making final judgments, especially if we only hear see memes and short summaries from a person over the internet.

If you're also interested in this topic then this will be very long, so thank you for bearing with me.

And if not, especially because you don't care or don't want to read about 7S/HI3 Yanqing then that's also fair, Ma Feima and Yanqing are different characters, and I hope you have a good day!

(NOTE: CW for the mention/discussion of a notable age gap between characters in the story. There are details surrounding that but I'd rather place this here for convenience. Look out for yourselves and stay safe!)

It's wild how many different versions of what happened in the Seven Swords visual novel, which is understandable due to its lack of official translation + not being complete (as far as I know? I am open to corrections overall). But the amount of details that go missing or are incorrect is notably large and I find this situation interesting. As mentioned, anyone who knows better (content, translation-wise, etc.), please correct me on anything if needed.

I will use some screenshots from the videos that translated the available chapters (1-2 and part of the beginning/prologue of 3, I believe). The translations are not entirely accurate so heck, I might be wrong on stuff too.

From personal experience, there were two things I heard about Ma Feima from HI3 players:

He killed his master, Fu Hua.

He cheated on his wife.

Legit, the first time I encountered these points, it was as simple as that. And I took it at face value because it understandably takes effort to look into this stuff and a lot of players from HI3 were saying it. But over time, curiosity got to me and I wanted to see the context surrounding it, and here's what I found.

However, here are some things to know about Seven Swords and Fu Hua's disciples:

The Seven in order are: Lin Zhaoyu, Su Mei, Jiang Wanxi, Jiang Wanru, Cheng Lingshuang, Ma Feima, and Qin Suyi

The present of the VN is set in 1496 while the assassination of Fu Hua was twenty years prior in 1476.

Ma Feima, despite being the 6th disciple, is the youngest.

Ma Feima's original name was Yanqing but changed it to Feima when he got older.

Qin Suyi, the 7th disciple, is Sushang's mother in both HI3 and HSR.

Lin Zhaoyu, the 1st disciple, and Ma Feima are married.

Onto the points:

He killed his master, Fu Hua.

Yes, he was involved but some attribute the plan to him. BUT he wasn't. The person who formed this plan was Su Mei, the 2nd disciple.

Supposedly, all seven disciples participated though most, if not all of them, were reluctant to do so.

They were all bothered by Fu Hua's, effective but cruel way of dealing with Honkai-infected people (She would wipe out whole villages if even ONE person was infected).

The last straw for the disciples was when Jiang Wanru, the 4th disciple, got infected.

It was in that battle that Ma Feima got the scar on his face.

Also to note, Cheng Lingshuang, the 5th disciple, was the one to get the last hit on Fu Hua.

This is a straightforward point, a lot of people know this stuff, and is probably the point that's more elaborated on. But I still wanted to mention it because, oftentimes, a lot of the credit for the plan, and sometimes the last hit is given to Ma Feima. It erases the actions of other pretty interesting characters and is simply incorrect.

Onto the second point, because this is where things get really interesting and a lot is going on.

2. Ma Feima cheated on his wife.

This has given the idea that he had an affair, cheating on his wife, Lin Zhaoyu

No, he didn't.

It is true that he was in love with Su Mei but she never loved him back and was very clear about it so in a literal-traditional sense, he didn't have an affair.

Emotionally, yeah.

It seems that he had been attached to her since he was a child.

Lin Zhaoyu seems to have always been aware of that and still pursued to marry him.

BIG NOTE: This is where I'm going to cover the age gap stuff.

One thing that I have rarely seen anyone mention is the large gap between Lin Zhaoyu and Ma Feima in age.

It's said that Lin Zhaoyu is 15 years older than Su Mei.

Supposedly, Qin Suyi was around eight years old when Fu Hua found her.

Remember, Ma Feima is the youngest of the disciples.

I wouldn't have harped as hard about the age gap if they met/didn't know each other in Ma Feima's childhood, but the disciples technically grew up together so I found it to be questionable.

For reference:

In order, that's Lin Zhaoyu, Su Mei, and Ma Feima when they were younger.

At minimum and based on all the searching and math, at minimum, Su Mei would be thirteen there, and by the 15-year age gap, Zhaoyu would have been 28 years old.

Now, based on the writing, Zhaoyu and Feima most likely got married in the twenty years between the assassination of Fu Hua and the present of Seven Swords.

The youngest Feima would've been at the assassination was seventeen years old at that point.

For the present of the story, Zhaoyu, and Su Mei are 56 years old and 41 years old respectively. Feima is likely in his thirties.

Like I said, I'm making a big point to this because, like, what the heck. That's MAJORLY concerning even if you tried to reason your way around it. Besides any potential "normal in the era" type stuff and that they got married when they were both adults, it's still a huge yikes, isn't it? Also, I've seen barely anyone mention that, and the ones I did see it from, it was when I was looking into the visual novel.

It's mostly because Yanqing is the one in HSR, he's the character that gets the most eyes. And when people only know him as a "master-killing wife cheater" without any of the context surrounding it, it's a huge shame, albeit fair if people don't want to actively look into it themselves. But because a notable chunk of players have let those perceptions have weight over an unrelated by anything but appearance, old name, and the parallel of (potentially) killing a master.

The circumstances surrounding the two are very different.

HSR Yanqing has Jing Yuan to raise and guide him safely through his early life. He's still very young and while stubborn, has a good head on his shoulders, and has a lot of potential to grow into someone strong and stable.

7S/HI3 Ma Feima on the other hand, is shown to have grown very differently from his younger self.

He is far from enjoying life, and don't get me wrong, he isn't completely innocent.

But he's completely aware and is miserable.

There's a lot more I could cover in terms of Ma Feima, his circumstances, and the things about the characters around them, but my brain is so fried lol. All-in-all, his story alongside the seven, is very...complicated.

My main thing is that, hey, maybe we should be a bit more vigilant when we learn things about characters. Beyond fiction, misinformation spreads very easily because we, understandably, take things at face value. In terms of media literacy, we see it time and time again when characters get reduced to a singular trait or a ship or get heavily misunderstood by the audience because a simplified summary will never do the context justice.